Curse

DarkNecrid · Mar 28, 2008, 04:36 PM // 16:36

Paragons.

Everyone hates them.

What are some good ideas to balance these? They are kinda overpowered but I think it's a really subtle overpowered. Like, they are obviously overpowered, but what they do is really subtle. I know people who think Anthem of Flame sucks but don't realize its benefits. Maybe it's because the #'s on everything are low, it's subtle.

I guess this topic will be way more focused on shouts in general/leadership, but hey...

Splitisoda · Mar 28, 2008, 04:49 PM // 16:49

They're overpowered? Never knew that o.o

DarkNecrid · Mar 28, 2008, 04:55 PM // 16:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Splitisoda

They're overpowered? Never knew that o.o

They're not as bad as they were but they're still pretty damn strong because shouts can't really be stripped etc etc etc

Faer · Mar 28, 2008, 05:06 PM // 17:06

I just generally dislike irremovable party-wide buffs and webs of passive defense. Making Chants or Echoes removable somehow would be cool, and is definitely something I'd like to see (there are plenty of trash skills that could be reworked for such a purpose), but I'm not holding my breath. Skills I'd like to see changed, not necessarily in order of how much I'd like them to be changed:

Spear of Lightning - Tone it down a bit.
Anthem of Flame - Add a few seconds of recharge, I guess. Not going to fuss over it too much.
Aggressive Refrain - Cracked Armor was a dumb solution. All it really does is fuel RC and produce bitching from certain parts of the player community. The concept of reducing armor is good, but not via this condition. Additionally, it is too easy to upkeep. Reduce the duration.
Anthem of Disruption - 15e, 20r. Not really for any balancing reasons, but just because I think this skill is worth that, if you are going to use it at all.
Anthem of Weariness - Reduce Weakness duration in the upper scale ranges.
Defensive Anthem - 30r. I'll explain if I have to.
Song of Concentration - 10 adren, maybe reduce cast time to 1s. Not sure how I really feel about it yet.
Spear Swipe - Give it a massive buff, so RAers will cry more about it.
Spear of Redemption - Make it suck less. Always remove condition if it hits, reduce damage to +5...15 or so.
Leadership - Oh. Another Soul Reaping. That's good for the game.

Too bored to bother thinking about it further than that.

Kyp Jade · Mar 28, 2008, 05:23 PM // 17:23

I wish defensive shouts had some sort of animation. So that when DA gets through all my interupts, at least I can see its on there without needing to be told about it.

Other than that, I think echoes should recheck attributes when they reapply.
Say a paragon has mending refrain on everyone, but gets hit by wail of doom, if the refrains reapply in that time, they get set at 0 motivation spec. the next recharge. That wont bring them down, but look at aggresive refrain. Having that reapply at 0 spec will cause it to drop more than likely unless the paragon is keeping is gfte charged and ready (and not using it meaning no e manage)

FoxBat · Mar 28, 2008, 05:39 PM // 17:39

This is dangerous, but revisiting the anti-adrenal skills may provide an option for paragon shutdown. Maybe if ancestral/sympathetic visage were reworked to "if target ally is struck by an attack, the attacker loses all adrenaline and 3 energy."

Kyp Jade · Mar 28, 2008, 05:42 PM // 17:42

Wouldnt help at all, illusion is a HORRIBLE attribute line

Pyro maniac · Mar 28, 2008, 05:58 PM // 17:58

Reduce the energy costs by 1/2 of all skills
Change Leadership so it isn't an energy engine anymore

Scrimbul · Mar 28, 2008, 06:05 PM // 18:05

I agree, illusion sucks, but if sympathetic/ancestors were buffed to be all attacks instead of just melee attacks, and not spells, then they would be worth something. The point of the spells is to kill the energy and momentum of your attacker mid-spike or discourage pressure but it doesn't even really do that in it's current incarnation.

Illusion would be worth more if migraine/frustration/arcane conundrum caused shouts and chants to have doubled cast time, instant shouts to have a 1 second cast time, and caused a touch more degen.

deathy · Mar 28, 2008, 07:45 PM // 19:45

The problem with paragons is more that they are much much harder to prot against than warriors, while potentially dealing as much damage as them. This unprottable damage means that pretty much alll teams have to have an aegis chain to slow down this damage, leadingto defensive spiek builds which are just not as fun as pressure/dynamic split builds. Paragon's arn't overpowered as such, just bad for the game. Reworking is appropriate.

la_cabra_de_vida · Mar 28, 2008, 08:02 PM // 20:02

Paras are so broken its not even worth it to sudgest changes, all you can do is nerf.

C2K · Mar 28, 2008, 08:14 PM // 20:14

Wanna hit Paragons? Add more shout and chant hate. Maybe make a skill that can rip an echo off too. Thats The only reason why paragons are frustrating to face.

Popo · Mar 28, 2008, 08:15 PM // 20:15

Nerfing their IAS solves a lot of problems right off the bat.

DarkNecrid · Mar 28, 2008, 08:17 PM // 20:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by C2K

Wanna hit Paragons? Add more shout and chant hate. Maybe make a skill that can rip an echo off too. Thats The only reason why paragons are frustrating to face.

thats pretty bad as then the game becomes R/P/S

edit: i think anything that can interrupt spells should interrupt chants etc like the Power ____ skills.

C2K · Mar 28, 2008, 08:47 PM // 20:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

thats pretty bad as then the game becomes R/P/S

edit: i think anything that can interrupt spells should interrupt chants etc like the Power ____ skills.

Perhaps, but thats why people hate paragons in PvP. Shouts, echoes, and chants are not removable once applied. Its really the only thing that makes paragon playable too, because Rangers can make better use of the spear.

MasterSasori · Mar 28, 2008, 09:36 PM // 21:36

Do something about the chants and shouts. Paragons are ridiculously overpowered.

Almighty Zi · Mar 28, 2008, 10:43 PM // 22:43

One probem skill that fails to be resolved is agressive refrain. It needs nerfing beyond the cracked armour application. Having cracked armour doesn't stop it reeling in extra adrenaline and maintaining DPS. I suspect that the devs have obviously kept it this way in order to keep the paragon played. Its the same with all the new classes, they have one broken aspect that will never be fixed so that there is always a reason to play them.

On a related note, its funny that memser interupts now affect chants but the other skills that affect spells (backfire, migraine, shame etc.) still don't.

Oh, and yes, having some kind of icon (like the one for weapon spells) for shouts would be interesting - as long as it doesn't make things cluttered/cumbersome.

Riotgear · Mar 28, 2008, 11:31 PM // 23:31

A full scrap and rebuild would be the best thing for them, really. They're by far the most poorly-designed class in the game, particularly because the vast majority of the shit they do is immune to almost all practical counters.

Aggressive Refrain - Change to +33% Adrenaline.
Spear of Lightning - Reduce damage significantly.
Reapplying Echoes - Reduce casting costs, change to maintained skills effective while targets are affected by chants/echoes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Popo

Nerfing their IAS solves a lot of problems right off the bat.

This.

Van Goghs Ear · Mar 29, 2008, 12:01 AM // 00:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faer

[*]Aggressive Refrain - Cracked Armor was a dumb solution. All it really does is fuel RC and produce bitching from certain parts of the player community.

what??? That has to be the most absurd thing I've ever heard. Agressive is what makes paragons spike candidates on the midline now.

Paragons are pretty balanced now. They can't split well at all, they have weak armour because of cracked, and putting them into your build either means a sacrafice to defence (cruel spear) or a sacrafice to splitability. Paragons are fine now IMO.

Master Ketsu · Mar 29, 2008, 12:16 AM // 00:16

Creating a new game mechanic that functions as a shout but only covers half earshot range would solve alot of problems.